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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
nom
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Posted: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:07PM
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MacOS10,

sorry a bit late but meant to comment on before

"Does anyone else think Apple should rename iTunes to reflect the range of media it now handles"

yeah it does grate a bit, doesn't it

then again Woolworths carried on for ages and I never bought wool there

not sure what alternative name could viably replace iTunes and still work (iMedia, iContent, iStuff, iClaudius?)

The downside of rebuilding awareness will prob rule out any change as iTunes brand awareness must be as high as anyone else right now

If Apple did go for it, I'd reckon they'd go for a major change so no more i-Whatever stuff

Maybe something like 'The Place', 'Venue' or even, and okay I'm out on a limb here, but 'Dealer' would work as in people recommending, in an off-hand way, that friends go to The Place, Venue or Dealer to get an app vid or tune

seems unlikely they'd change name, but anything Apple does right now generates so much publicity that it probably wouldn't take long for people to get it

But if the do keep iTunes they can point to other stores with misleading names ... like Boots!

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Dragonfly
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Dragonfly

Posted: Tue, 02 Feb 2010 11:22PM
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J.P.,

OK I declare I do have a bit of a biased opinion , as I would need to find another career (again) if Flash were to vanish. The slight shadow of a possibility does mean I won't be attempting to climb Actionscript 3 any time soon.

The CSS3 link was quite interesting and I think it shows a lot of promise, but the problem is you are back to the reason Flash appeared in the first place. Web pages look different on different browsers. Nobody can ever come to a de facto standard however hard they try. Safari will work one way, Firefox another, Google Chrome another, Internet explorer another. Even the CSS3 example only works on webkit browsers. Do you really expect Microsoft, Google and Apple to sit down and come to an agreement ?

Then you are up against browser updates. You may spend many weeks plotting the positions of each part of a walking robot and entering in hundreds of x,y co-ordinates to make it move all 'nice and open source like' and your client will be extremely pleased with the change they got from the £9,999 bill. but all of a sudden Apple or google or Microsoft decides to change something in their interpretation of CSS or HTML5 and now your 50,000 line project no longer works without some major revision.

At least with .swf files you know the experience is going to be the same all the time, and I have to say I've experienced Flash crashing a few times, but not really noticed any problems with projects that I've created using Flash, either .swf, .app or .exe files. But I'm sure there are.

I'm sure there will be instances when an amalgamation of HTML5 (scheduled to be finalised in 2022!) and CSS3 and Javascript and a few other technologies that'll come along will do some amazing things and I think you're right that a lot of content that once was Flash territory is now being converted to other technologies. But until there is a direct replacement to Flash, I think Flash will be around for a lot of years yet. And Flash will eventually make it onto iPhone, iPad and Nexus One.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
J.P.
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J.P.

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Posted: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 07:58AM
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Dragonfly,

"Web pages look different on different browsers."

Which is nowhere near as true as it used to be, the existence of Firefox and WebKit has turned the landscape towards open standards and because HTML5 is a new standard it's not having the layers of incompatibility that became common during the Microsoft/Netscape wars.

"Even the CSS3 example only works on webkit browsers"

CSS3 is very new, it's not really supported by anything much yet, but it's interesting to see what can be done with it.

" Do you really expect Microsoft, Google and Apple to sit down and come to an agreement"

They already have, Google and Apple led the WHAT-WG that developed HTML5 and Microsoft came on board when it was moved to the W3C last year (one of the W3C chairs is a Microsoft guy). Microsoft don't have the clout they did in the browser market, they realise that they need to follow the standards these days.

"but all of a sudden Apple or google or Microsoft decides to change something in their interpretation of CSS or HTML5 and now your 50,000 line project no longer works without some major revision."

Have you, in particular, noticed the behaviour of html tags changing suddenly recently? Why would it be a "50,000 line" project anyway, most HTML5 code I've seen is fairly succinct, and you seem to assume that no one is going to develop any content creation tools for HTML5.

"At least with .swf files you know the experience is going to be the same all the time"

Yes, you know that if someone has an iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad or incompatible version of Flash, then they won't see your content. Flash only works when it's ubiquitous or there's no other option. If it's a case of "HTML5 will work on every popular browser, Flash works on 80%", then why would people use Flash? Yes there may be some niche features that you can only use Flash to do, but most websites use Flash for some fairly simple functionality and animation or (and this may be the major case) video. The percent of devices that don't support Flash isn't down to 80% yet, but it's not far off, and once it gets there then there's a lot of downwards pressure. If you're an advertiser and one company offers you a Flash ad that won't get seen by a demographic set that's typically quite affluent, and another offers you an HTML5 ad that will be seen by them, then which would you choose? There's no reason that they would have to charge any higher price.

"scheduled to be finalised in 2022!"

It's an evolving standard but many parts will be finalised well before then (such as the canvas tag).

"And Flash will eventually make it onto iPhone, iPad"

Steve Jobs made that sound unlikely...

[Steve on Adobe]"They are lazy. They have all this potential to do interesting things, but they just refuse to do it. They don't do anything with the approaches that Apple is taking, like Carbon. Apple does not support Flash because it is so buggy. Whenever a Mac crashes more often than not it's because of Flash. No one will be using Flash. The world is moving to HTML5."

Remember Apple get all the bug reports from when people click the "Report to Apple" buttons, so they have data to back this up. Bertrand Serlet said something similar (about the crashes caused by Flash) at WWDC last year.


JP.

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The Mac Place - Macintosh Support, Consultancy, & pithy Mac blog
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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Dragonfly
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Dragonfly

Posted: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:08AM
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J.P.,

Well you put up some convincing arguments, and I think there will definitely be transition away from Flash for things like video and some basic graphics etc... Apple's website shows what can be done on web pages without Flash.

A lot of websites use Flash for things like buttons, in amongst the HTML, which I don't think they should. I agree that's wrong. Where web advertising can be switched to an HTML5, Javascript and CSS3 combination... they should (although I quite like the way I can use 'Click to Flash' and shut a lot of those sorts of things out. You won't be able to do that when it's native to the browser).

And if Video can be done successfully and reliably without Flash, then it should be. Remember video is a relatively new addition to Flash appearing in Flash MX (2002).

However sometimes people seem to forget that video on the internet didn't work well before Flash, and you had to make sure you had the right codecs installed or had to use Windows Media Player or a codec that wasn't available for the Mac in Quicktime or Real Video.

YouTube's success owes its very existence to Flash (and Macromedia). I don't think it would have happened without it. Only now are we starting to see the industry catching up.

iPlayer, 4OD, itvPlayer which are all successful, owe their very existence on the Mac to Adobe, because Quicktime didn't deliver the goods.

I'm all for new and open source technologies if it makes the user's viewing experience better and makes the designer's life easier to create great content. I am yet to be convinced that a combination of HTML5 Javascript and CSS3 will be easier to create or as versatile as Flash is, not for a very long time anyway.

"and you seem to assume that no one is going to develop any content creation tools for HTML5."

Well, I'm sure they will, but until someone actually creates a finished and working teleportation system, there's not much point in anyone moaning that the bus companies could do amazing things if they weren't so lazy. Once Microsoft gives up on Silverlight and Apple and Google settle their differences, perhaps some amazing collaboration will appear in 4 or 5 years time, but for now I think (and yes... I hope ) Flash will continue to dominate well into this new decade.

Otherwise... Does anyone have any jobs going.... Do you want fries with that

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
J.P.
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J.P.

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Posted: Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:16PM
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Dragonfly,

"Well you put up some convincing arguments, and I think there will definitely be transition away from Flash for things like video and some basic graphics etc... Apple's website shows what can be done on web pages without Flash."

Yes but what happens when Flash isn't as prevalent? It becomes a vicious circle, fewer people have it so fewer people design with it.

"However sometimes people seem to forget that video on the internet didn't work well before Flash"

People forget that NCSA Mosaic kicked off web browsing as well, but few would use that as an argument for continuing to use it

"YouTube's success owes its very existence to Flash (and Macromedia). I don't think it would have happened without it. Only now are we starting to see the industry catching up.

iPlayer, 4OD, itvPlayer which are all successful, owe their very existence on the Mac to Adobe, because Quicktime didn't deliver the goods."


That's all historic though, and YouTube and iPlayer have H.264 versions these days, and ITV Player is Silverlight. Flash helped video because there was no way to embed video without resorting to a plugin. It wasn't that Quicktime didn't deliver, it's because Quicktime was a plugin itself. The thing with HTML5 is that it allows you to play video without resorting to a plugin at all. It's also a better video watching experience, compare Youtube with HTML5 to Flash, try scrubbing around the video a little, it works a LOT better.

"Flash will continue to dominate well into this new decade."

If Apple keep selling iPhones and iPod Touches, and if the iPad sells well, there's going to be building pressure against Flash. There's around 2 million iPhones in the UK, I would imagine there's a few iPod Touches kicking around. If they sell a million iPads, you're starting to get into serious numbers of devices that won't play Flash.

Someone will come up with a good authoring environment though, you'll end up doing exactly the same stuff, just with a different logo on the app you use to create it.


JP.

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The Mac Place - Macintosh Support, Consultancy, & pithy Mac blog
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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Dragonfly
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Dragonfly

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 09:58AM
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J.P.,

"ITV Player is Silverlight"

It used to be, but then they decided to go for something (dare I say) more standard

A video delivery system isn't what Flash is about as far as I'm concerned it's sort of an extra they added on because 90% of everyone had a Flash plug-in, so It doesn't really bother me how video is delivered.

If the video codec will become a standard part of all web browsers, instead of requiring a plug-in, then that's brilliant. I'm surprised it's taken everyone 15 years to get there. It's amazing what the domination of one product can do to bang everyone's heads together.

Incidentally, with everyone desperate to kill off Flash, does that mean Microsoft will be moving away from developing Silverlight in favour of an HTML5, CSS3, Javascript combo.

"Someone will come up with a good authoring environment though, you'll end up doing exactly the same stuff, just with a different logo on the app you use to create it."

That's a bit like saying, don't worry, you'll still be speaking, just in a totally different language. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Xhris2210
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Xhris2210

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:47AM
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Dragonfly,

"That's a bit like saying, don't worry, you'll still be speaking, just in a totally different language. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end."

To be fair I'd imagine the transition would be rather more like going from XPress to InDesign [or vice-versa]. The basic skillset's the same and there's also a convergence on the way the interfaces work. That's the theory in any case...

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
J.P.
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J.P.

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Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 10:48AM
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Dragonfly,

"It used to be, but then they decided to go for something (dare I say) more standard"

Shows how often I watch ITV Still, you have to wonder how Flash will do if it stops being the standard.

"does that mean Microsoft will be moving away from developing Silverlight in favour of an HTML5, CSS3, Javascript combo."

From the developments of Silverlight it actually looks like MS are moving it to be more of a competitor for AIR than Flash itself.

"That's a bit like saying, don't worry, you'll still be speaking, just in a totally different language. I'm sure it'll all work out in the end."

Ja, aber wenn Sie mussten...


JP.

Apple Certified System Administrator

The Mac Place - Macintosh Support, Consultancy, & pithy Mac blog
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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Dragonfly
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Dragonfly

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:52AM
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Xhris2210,
To be fair I'd imagine the transition would be rather more like going from XPress to InDesign [or vice-versa].

Not entirely, I've done that transition and that was relatively easy. With Flash, the problem is Actionscript 2 which will need to be replaced with Javascript, which are similar but different enough to get me back to reading manuals for 6 months.

I'd also need to learn how the code interacts with the visual stuff. There's also a huge library of customised Actionscript 2 I've written over the years that will be all but useless.

I don't do a lot of web specific stuff, like advertising etc... I mostly create simulators which are quite involved. I don't think I will be able to move away from Flash for that purely on a cost issue of retraining myself, but I don't think Flash is going to die altogether, so I should hopefully be ok.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Dragonfly
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Dragonfly

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:03PM
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J.P.,

"Ja, aber wenn Sie mussten..."

Don't joke about it, the way this country is going that's a distinct possibility as well.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
J.P.
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J.P.

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Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 12:21PM
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Dragonfly,

Oh blimey, if you start sounding any more like andybarton I will come down to Cornwall and hit you with a cheery-stick.

Apologies to L.P. Hartley but the past is like a foreign country; people tend to believe they're both better without any basis in either logic or fact


JP.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Jaded
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Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:35PM
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J.P.,


"Apologies to L.P. Hartley but the past is like a foreign country; people tend to believe they're both better without any basis in either logic or fact "

Yes, he should have stuck to writing fishing books.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
J.P.
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J.P.

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Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 04:51PM
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Jaded,

Wrong Hartley, that was just a fictional one L.P. Hartley was a genius, The Go-Between is a brilliant book.


JP.

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The Mac Place - Macintosh Support, Consultancy, & pithy Mac blog
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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Jaded
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Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:21PM
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J.P.,


There is no spooning.


(I did know about the Yellow Pages author )

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
Mark Hattersley
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Mark Hattersley

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 05:41PM
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J.P.,

I think it was a fictional book but then somebody actually wrote a guide to fly fishing under that name to cash in. So the book does exist (unless it's a QI type urban myth)

Bit off topic: I'll drag it back to the iPad. Anybody use a Kindle or ePub books in general at the moment. I have a few and am looking forward to testing them out.

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Author: Topic: Re: iPad, so what's your verdict :-)
handy*
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handy*

Posted: Thu, 04 Feb 2010 06:04PM
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Mark Hattersley,

No urban myth :

Fly Fishing by J R Hartley
Publisher: Hutchinson (31 Dec 1995)
ISBN-10: 009177909X
ISBN-13: 978-0091779092

and 2 sequels

(in a desperate attempt to stop a topic from being returned to it's original purpose, in finest MW tradition)

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